When People Call You, The Victim, Abusive

Many victims of narcissistic abuse experience the same thing.  After months, years or even a lifetime of abuse, they realize they can’t take the abuse anymore.  They then escape the narcissist & are met with further abuse from other people instead of love, concern & support.

That abuse frequently consists of victims being told they are oversensitive, they need to forgive, aren’t being so called “good Christians,” they shouldn’t go no contact because the narcissist is family & other similar nonsense.  Possibly the worst of the comments many victims hear though is when people tell the victim that they are the abusive one.  I think one of the most painful things any abuse victim can hear is that they are acting like someone who caused them unimaginable pain & suffering.  It’s cruel & it also can cause victims to have doubts about their behavior.  Following is some food for thought for narcissistic abuse victims as well as for anyone who may have said these things.

When a victim escapes their narcissist & refuses to have any further contact, that doesn’t make a victim immature, unforgiving or pouting like a spoiled little child.  It also doesn’t mean the victim is being passive aggressive by giving their abuser the silent treatment.  It means the victim is protecting him or her self from further abuse, not being abusive towards anyone.

When a victim finally tells others about what the narcissist did, this also isn’t abusive.  This is someone speaking the truth about unthinkable suffering they have endured.  This person is looking for support, to work through their pain, to warn others who know the abuser & even to help raise awareness of narcissistic abuse.  There is absolutely no way this is abusive!

When people tell the victim how they should return to the relationship, anyone should refuse to engage with people like this because clearly they are toxic.  Doing so is not abusive.  What is abusive, however, is when people tell other people they should return to an abusive relationship, & shame them for not wanting to tolerate abuse any longer.  I admit, this is a particularly sensitive topic with me.  When I broke my engagement to my now ex husband, several people told me I should get back together with him because he was miserable without me.  After going no contact with my parents, people said I needed to “fix things with them”, as if I was the only one who could repair that relationship.  In both situations, not one person asked why I severed ties with these people & they encouraged me to return to relationships that were detrimental to me.  See how abusive that is?

People who tell others to “take the high road” or “be the bigger person” are the abusive ones, not those who refuse to take that supposed high road.  Tolerating abuse doesn’t make you a good person.  It isn’t good or holy.  It’s foolish.

People who share criticisms with victims of how victims handled the abusive relationship when the victim didn’t ask for their thoughts are being abusive.  The victim is not being abusive for not handling the abuser the way this person thinks they should.  The victim is also not being abusive because he or she tells this person that they didn’t ask for that person’s opinion.

People who move on & enjoy their life after surviving narcissistic abuse aren’t deserving of shame, nor are they narcissists.  To shame them or call them narcissistic for finally having the ability to enjoy their lives is abusive.

If you are faced with people who call you abusive or they abuse you for ending an abusive relationship, they clearly have problems.  Always remember, you aren’t being abusive in any way for protecting yourself from them or your abuser!  Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.

14 Comments

Filed under Abuse and the Healing Journey, Christian Topics and Prayers, Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Mental Health, Narcissism

14 responses to “When People Call You, The Victim, Abusive

  1. annealcroft

    “When a victim finally tells others about what the narcissist did, this also isn’t abusive. This is someone speaking the truth about unthinkable suffering they have endured. This person is looking for support, to work through their pain, to warn others who know the abuser & even to help raise awareness of narcissistic abuse. There is absolutely no way this is abusive!”

    In this situation, to answer the age old question “What came first, the chicken or the egg?” it seems to me the chicken came first. I believe before we were even born the abuser(s) in our life already had it in for us.

    A while back I confronted my father about the fact that his violent physical abuse of me at a very early age, about 3 years old, could have only been the result of his resentment of having another mouth to feed and whatever expense I represented to him.

    Realizing this has helped me to dig into the reasons why I have so much confusion and so many psychological blocks around all things having to do with the subject of “money,” my self worth, my feelings of guilt about even being here*

    Of course, he never responded.

    Thinking back to my very early childhood, when I first began to express my feelings of hurt, I was ridiculed. The favorite device to shame me for voicing my feelings, or for crying, was “Awwwww, da da baaaabeeeee.” Or, “there goes Baby Dumps again.” Three years old, beaten until I passed out, and shamed for crying about it.

    As I grew older, the abuses became more visceral especially from my father, who would do and say anything to kill my soul and silence my voice when I tried to stand up for myself. I can remember when I was about 12 years old, his verbal abuse being so devastating that I actually had a seizure that closely resembled epilepsy.

    Yes, it reaches the point that we simply can not take it any more. And one of the most frightening places to be, even when we are middle aged, in my case 62, is after we have found the courage to reach out for help and to expose the abuser, we are left with the residue of disbelief by those who do, in fact, as you point out Cynthia, perpetuate the abuse.

    In her interviews about incest abuse, Marilyn Van Debur talks about this kind of abuse and how, if people will not believe us as adults when we expose our abuser(s), how then can we hope or expect that they will believe children who are being hurt? Perhaps we all realize this at a very early age which is why we endure the devastating heartbreak that damages that part of our soul that would otherwise freight our ability to live whole, complete, happy and productive lives.

    As narcissism and the exponential damage of its residual abuse becomes better recognized and exposed in our culture, a component of this abuse all too often ignored that flies beneath the radar of even the most astute healers such as Dr. Henry Cloud, has to do with financial abuse, especially of women. It has been my experience that even organizations that now posture themselves as supportive of women’s rights and defenders of those being abused will inevitably side with the perpetrator and in doing so, further advance instead of empowering us to take a stand for ourselves by helping us find the legal and administrative tools to extricate ourselves from the abuser. It is absolutely astonishing to realize how susceptible people are — especially those ostensibly in “authority” such as those who work for elder abuse agencies, who are so easily hoodwinked and convinced by the smooth, slick, lies the narcissistic abuser has so well rehearsed in order to deceive anyone who may try to hold them accountable.

    I could write volumes on my experience with this scenario but for now, suffice it to say I’ve already written a missive. Thanks for listening to me.

    Here is the link to the interview of Marilyn Van Derbur where she talks about our credibility being usurped by those who don’t want to believe us.

    *Cynthia, I think you touch on some of this in your post the other day about “Irritable Gratitude Syndrome.” Need to go back and listen to that again.

    Liked by 2 people

    • The more you tell of your story, the more my heart just breaks for you! I a so sorry for all you’ve endured! It’s just unbelieveable anyone can treat their own child this way!

      I don’t know about social workers, but I do know that those in the mental health field have virtually NO teaching about NPD & the other cluster B personality disorders. I have 2 friends that are counselors. Both live a thousand miles apart. One is about 15 years older than the other. Yet, both said they got ONE afternoon’s worth of teaching about cluster B types. That’s all! It makes me wonder if those in social work get even that much since it’s clearly deemed unimportant. That could explain why so many fall for the narcissist’s “good guy/girl” acts. Plus, narcissists are drawn to helping professions so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were plenty in that field who get some sick thrill out of allowing another narcissist to abuse their victim.

      I saved the interview.. I’ll have to watch it later. I skimmed it a little & it sounds very interesting!

      I think I did.. not positive at the moment. I made that video months ago so I don’t remember.

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      • annealcroft

        “I don’t know about social workers, but I do know that those in the mental health field have virtually NO teaching about NPD & the other cluster B personality disorders.”

        This is a blockbuster issue that should demand the spotlight. Emphasis on SHOULD.

        The academy has become a malignancy in our culture and with each year, that institution becomes more of a political arena of social engineering that has nothing to do with the intellectual and spiritual advancement of humanity. Instead, it is dismantling our civilization in its plight to rewrite history according to its pugnacious, radical ideology. It’s heartbreaking to think of the way, back in the 60s as I vividly recall, the blue collar worker was made to feel like a lackey if he couldn’t afford to send his kid to college. Once upon a time there were people who were self-taught, who made it in this world because their authentic enthusiasm for what they loved and what interested them motivated them to fulfill what became obvious to them as their God-given mission in life. One thing that is very important to understand is how the Church influenced the history of education and how today, we have reached such a radical, dangerous departure from the original Christian foundation that most of the academy world-wide was built upon. Now it seems Satan is having his way.

        Today, we just about need a degree to get a job pumping gas. As one of our politicians pointed out not long ago, today a B.A. is the equivalent of a high school diploma. In the professional arena, unless one is in lockstep with “the program” and show promise that you will yield to the mandates of the establishment, there is little chance that thinking outside of the box, or the even the willingness to work hard at what you do, will be rewarded. Instead, you’ll find yourself in the snare of narcissistic politics in any milieu where this kind of narcissistic ambition motivates people to act as they do, instead of Christian charity.

        Cynthia, you know much more about NPD than any psychiatrist or therapist I have, in my 40 years in and out of therapy, have ever met. And I am not just saying that.

        For a decade, I saw a psychiatrist whose degrees were from Yeshiva and Yale Universities. I knew from his framed diplomas and accolades that hung on the walls of his office. Dr. Gottfried (not his real name) was highly recommended to me by a physician I saw in my very early 20s who told me I was “a nervous wreck.” For the next 10 years I was in therapy with Dr. Gottfried, with a brief respite once or twice, but then resuming therapy again.

        I was so completely broken at that point in my life that I can only forgive myself now for my naivete and stupidity.

        Dr. Gottfried was a handsome man, perhaps a few years younger than my father, with an elegant office in the basement of his home, replete with a magnificent tufted leather couch and tastefully appointed with high-end Scandinavian furniture, soft lighting, and even a fireplace. To this day the aroma of leather and woodsmoke reminds me of Dr. Gottfried’s office and my years spent in therapy with him.

        When I was in my early thirties, after an incredibly devastating long distance move that I had made after being wooed by a man I honestly thought I might marry, I resumed therapy with Dr. Gottfried which, at that time, my father was willing to pay for out of pocket as I had no health insurance. I am 5’6″ and my ideal weight is 120 lbs. I was down to 97 pounds and barely able to function.

        Week by week, I began looking forward more and more to my appointment with Dr. Gottfried. So much so, that I would plan out what I would wear, what I would say, and how I could best impress Dr. Gottfried with what, don’t ask me because I really don’t know! All I knew was that I was falling madly in love with Dr. Gottfried. Obsessed in love with Dr. Gottfried. Yet I realized at the same time, I was not getting any healthier, as a matter of fact, I was finding myself back in the same co-dependent pattern of the horrible relationship I was trying to overcome. I would ask Dr. Gottfried about narcissism in women, and if I should those characteristics. He would space out. I asked him what a medication was that he’d put me on. He said it was “molecules.”

        Something wasn’t adding up. Dr. Gottfried was being paid up front for therapy. No insurance involved. He was milking it for all it was worth. My obsession with him had to have been obvious to him. He egged it on.

        I sat in the waiting room watching the clock for my 10:00 a.m. appointment with Dr. Gottfried. The door to his office opened, and there stood Dr. Gottfried, fresh out of the shower, in a pink shirt, beautiful pink silk tie, exquisite linen suit, irresistibly debonair and handsome. I went numb.

        I went in, sat down on his full-length leather couch, and I eye-balled him.

        And then came the million dollar question that God gave me the courage to ask:

        “Dr. Gottfried, WHY do you keep me coming back here?”

        His jaw dropped and he said, “I don’t understand the question.”

        I got up and walked out.

        This man knew nothing about Cluster B personality disorders, nor did he have the most remote clue of how to begin to approach a healing “modality” (I hate that word) for someone like myself who had so obvious been abused as a child. How many years did I spend, how many therapy sessions, TELLING him about the abuse I endured and continued to endure by my father, mother, sister, ex-husband, and yes, more recent men in my life and even colleagues in my line of work who were exploiting me, making me jump through hoops like a poodle.

        A few years after this incident, I was tempted to report Dr. Gottfried but I never did and you know why? Because when I told another therapist about my experience with him she said, “And you fed into it.”

        Over the past few decades from time to time I’ve entertained the idea of earning my degree in some capacity of social work. When I began to look into programs, even and especially at some of the more prestigious ivy leagues and elitist colleges for women, I discovered that most of their programs are geared toward the radical agenda I mentioned earlier and are completely void of the kind of substance that you so often introduce here at your blog, Cynthia, that gives victims the traction they need to identify their hurt and to heal from that. The hyperbole our system of education propagates and promotes is damaging to people in that it promotes narcissism instead of identifying the reasons why it exists. Modern therapy is creating a culture of self-serving narcissists obsessed with licking their own wounds who are oh-so- OFF-ENDED by the truth.

        The worst of it is, because of our secular counter-culture that makes sin and morality taboo, the sexual abuse of children is unprecedented and many of our perverted politicians are trying to find ways and legislation to normalize this horror so they can keep on doing what they are doing without compunction or punishment. This largely explains why there is so much confusion about sexuality, sexual preference, and even sexual identity.

        One of the most important things I have learned from reuniting with my Catholic faith is the incredible value and importance of putting sex in its proper perspective and understanding its divine purpose and quality. This is why understanding the power and value of mortification of the flesh is so important. If I am not mistaken, in the Hindu culture, the redirection of sexual energy is called Kundalini. I know very little about that and have only touched upon this phenomenon that it seems every culture throughout civilization addresses. It is the cutting edge between sin and civilization and it seems when we can face this fact openly and honestly we may then be able to get to the root of the reasons why the aggression of so many people compels them, either because of jealousy, incontinence, or perversion, to abuse others.

        Liked by 1 person

        • I know.. it absolutely should be in the spotlight. Why it is so far onto the back burner, I don’t know.

          Absolutely. Education now is pretty much a joke. It seems more a way to program people than to educate them. And God? He’s certainly been booted out of it all.

          So very true about the professional arena. It’s dreadful! My husband is fortunate there isn’t a lot of that where he works, but it’s still there. It’s also why I flatly refuse to work for a traditional publisher.

          Thank you so much! That is so kind of you to say! God has taught me all I know about NPD & am I ever grateful for that!

          Oh wow… what horrible experiences in therapy!! And I thought mine was bad. Not compared to yours! How dare that second one say you fed into what happened with the first one! It sounds to me like both were narcissists, which isn’t surprising. Narcissists are drawn to “helping” professions like therapists. What a fantastic way to abuse victims while others look up to them for “helping”.

          So true.. that is one reason I refuse to get into therapy although I would like the help. So many counselors do just that, turn people into self centered people, even narcissists. They just don’t understand NPD & narcissistic abuse or maybe they’re narcissists. Either way, not worth my time when I have God to help me heal.

          Very true about child abuse. Did you hear some time ago that some were trying to get pedophelia labeled a “sexual orientation”? So sickening!

          I never heard that term before. Very interesting! I’ll have to read about it.

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          • annealcroft

            “Very true about child abuse. Did you hear some time ago that some were trying to get pedophelia labeled a “sexual orientation”? So sickening!”

            Sickening, yes, and tragic because our children are being robbed of the innocence, the precious innocence of childhood. The agenda set forth by Comprehensive Sexual Education does nothing but exploit the innocence of childhood by advancing identity politics that, like so many other -isms in our culture, is a product of social engineering by the elites who control and monopolize our monetary system whose agenda it is to enslave humanity. Back to Egypt. Same, exact, thing. And what is the tool that they use? Sex. And when they can’t become any more depraved than they already are, then they exploit race, and on it goes. Why? Because our culture, once God was kicked out the window, has confused love with sex. And that is why the agenda since the 19th century has been secularism and an outright war on Christendom. You are SPOT ON when you say “And God? He’s certainly been booted out of it all.”

            Yes, I couldn’t agree more wholeheartedly that education is a joke. I could write another missive about my experience in academia and how professors actually stole papers of mine with extensive research and sources and later coined my ideas as their own. In the workplace, the harder I worked the more I was exploited. One boss wanted me to go in the bathroom with him so he could show me how a computer program worked because, he said, that was where the best reception was. The narcissistic politics in the workplace, the sexualization of absolutely everything, is reprehensible. Rarely do we find people that are genuine and sincere any longer. We literally have to be on our toes at all times.

            Sure, it is best to always think the best of people, but it is also true that Jesus trusted no one. Didn’t His own family at one point in Scripture say He was mad?

            Most people can not understand why we love Him and what it really means to be a Christian. We are Christians to become like Him because He alone overcame death and gives us the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven IF we believe. And that command is much more than lip-service to His name. He spells out what we need to do to get through the narrow gate. Never, ever, does He yield to us. It is our task to yield to Him. Never, ever, did He sin because He knew that if He did, the show was over and His mission here would be a scam. So that is why it is important to learn everything possible about mortification of the flesh. The writings of Saint Catherine of Siena, who struggled constantly with this, are especially beautiful and healing.

            I began taking Jesus Christ in absolute sincerity when I realized how close I came to suicide. There is absolutely no question that our Blessed Mother pulled me from the wretched hell I was at the edge of and brought me to Her Beloved Son. Nobody can possibly know how grateful I am for our Lord and how I grieve the people who are simply too stubborn, lazy, or broken to afford themselves the incredible gift we are given to find our way home to Heaven. Nothing could be more magnificent, yet nothing is more heartbreaking than for the gift of life to be so pitifully taken for granted.

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            • It’s truly terrible! This is what happens without God & people are too blind to realize things could be so much better.

              Professors claimed your papers as theirs?!? Just unreal!! Not as unreal as the boss who wanted you to go into the bathroom with him but still. WOW on both counts!

              I agree.. narcissism runs rampant! The professionals say narcissism comprises only about 6% of the population but I respectfully disagree. It seems much more than that to me.

              That “always think the best of people” thing never sat right with me. As an adult I realized it’s best to think the real, the truth of people instead. Kinda hope for the best, prepare for the worst, I guess. I hope people I meet will be good people but I don’t necessarily expect that.

              YES!! to all you said about Jesus. I seriously can’t add to that! ❤

              I'm so sorry you were close to suicide! Such a horrid place to be! Thank God you didn't do it!

              It is heartbreaking how people reject Jesus. Yet they do it daily. The Father's heart must break countless times each day for those who reject His gifts of love & Salvation.

              Like

              • annealcroft

                “That “always think the best of people” thing never sat right with me. As an adult I realized it’s best to think the real, the truth of people instead. Kinda hope for the best, prepare for the worst, I guess. I hope people I meet will be good people but I don’t necessarily expect that.”

                Cynthia, your candor is a blessing and so refreshing when people speak their truth. As someone else here put it so well not long ago, you are so very “real” and that is why your work is so very healing!

                During the summer, there are lots of signs up that say, “Motorcycles are everywhere!” Yes, the signs say, “Motorcycles. They’re everywhere! Look twice, save a life.” Big, yellow signs.

                It seems to me it’s about time we start putting up signs that say, “Narcissists are everywhere!”

                They are. That is the truth, narcissists are everywhere and I would wager a parimutuel that 75% of our population carries this disease. The only vaccine for narcissism is Jesus Christ. When narcissists realize this, they then try to reinvent Jesus Christ by bending Scripture to suit their agenda. That makes my blood boil. And that, too, is everywhere, just like stinking, loud, obnoxious motorcycles. I couldn’t care less who I offend by saying so. Motorcycles are obnoxious. They scare the birds, they stink, the whole house shakes when they come through in droves, and they think the road belongs to them. So there. Why do they need to be so loud and why is there no legislation to stem the pollution from them? Same with dirty diesel.

                Back on narcissists everywhere, and thinking the best of people.

                Another narcissist in my life is a gal I’ll call Leisa. Yes, note the spelling of the name. A little twist on the original, authentic spelling of the name Lisa. But I am substituting Leisa/Lisa for her real name to protect her identity.

                Leisa lives around the corner from me. She’s 10 years younger, and I’ve known her since I first moved to town, about 20 years. I liked her, and we had some good conversations about gardens, town, shared interests, and horses.

                Over the years I’ve invited Leisa for supper a few times. The first time she overstayed her welcome, and didn’t leave until about 2:00 a.m. But I realized she needed to talk; her mother had just died, she was continuing her education, her son had just gone in the military, never much about her husband, but so it goes.

                One evening when she was out for a walk she stopped by unexpectedly. I offered her an iced tea and as it was getting dark out, I offered to give her a ride home. Oh, no, I’m fine, and she continued to talk for another good 15 minutes or so, when alas she said, as though apologizing for having to leave me, “I’m sorry, but I really need to go now.”

                A few other times afterward when I invited Leisa for lunch or dinner, she was obnoxiously late. “Oh, sorry I’m late but….”

                Or, then, another time, she shows up 20 minutes early. We did things together a few times, going to the museum, or out to Saratoga to the horse races. Every single time I’ve gotten together with her, it’s always, always, something.

                “Can you drive, my car needs repairs.” Sure, no problem, I’m happy to drive. Go to pick her up on time, and wait in the car for 25 minutes before she finally comes out. Hungover. She’d been out with a friend the night before. She’s married. Her husband and grown kids live at home with her.

                One day I invited her for lunch. I’d just made a quiche. She took one look at the quiche and said with dismay, “Oh, do you need eggs? My chickens are laying like crazy.” So what was that supposed to mean? Oh, I”m sick of eggs, couldn’t you have made something else to serve me?

                It is impossible to have a mature relationship with this girl. Try as I might to be kind to her and sympathetic to her plight, whatever that may be at the moment, she is routinely condescending, arrogant, conceited, and exhibits every characteristic of a malignant narcissist and the jealousy that freights their toxic behavior.

                She can not be trusted and I find myself with very negative feelings each time I am around her or even interact with her through email exchanges.

                Recently I told her about a horse farm that I had just visited where there were horses available for lease. Beautiful land with miles of trails but when the owners asked me if I held a permit to carry because they strongly advised that on the trails, I thought of Leisa, that she likes horses, and also does hold a permit to carry, so told her about the farm and horse leasing and asked her if she would be interested in leasing so we could ride together.

                It would take too long to try to explain the dynamics of how she has manipulated this entire scenario to make it all about her, how she went to the farm and spent a day there riding several of the horses and telling me all about the farm and the people there, things I had already told her. She goes on to proclaim all that she needs to get out of it, completely ignoring the fact that it was I who told her about the farm and asked her, point blank, about the need to carry arms in order to ride the trails and if she would be interested in riding together. That point is mote. This is now all about Leisa, what SHE can get from my telling her about the farm, and — “thanks for telling me.” Huh?

                I wondered why, knowing her antics, I would have sabotaged something fun and even as therapeutic as riding by sharing this with her. I can only conclude that for as much fun as it would be, there was something wrong in my perception about the farm and the horses that compelled me to sabotage the prospect. This has been a pattern in my life, yet the good news is, I get better all the time at knowing when to keep that which needs to be kept sacred, sacred! Hope that makes sense.

                What I realize is that, though I will try to see the good in Leisa, as is true with narcissists most often, the good does not outweigh the bad. Leisa will say things like, “Oh, if you need anything, just let me know.” But when push comes to shove and I do need something, she’s not there.

                She’ll give something and then ask for it back. One time when she came to my house for supper she brought a little glass heart-shaped dish filled with cookies. When she was leaving I went to give her back the dish but she told me she wanted me to have that. I thought that was cute. The next time she came for dinner, I used the dish. She looked at it and said, with great surprise (that was feigned) “Oh, that belongs to my set!” So of course, I gladly gave it back to her. She’s done things like that often.

                I couldn’t believe what came out of her mouth once about Jesus Christ and “all that bullsh_t” about rising from the dead. I was astonished. At that moment I believe I literally pulled her out of the fire by strongly rebuking her. Now she has a special email address like “oakcathedral” and hopefully, her conversion is authentic and real and eventually, with maturity and humility, she will begin to find her way. But I am not her punching bag and though I care about everyone, I also realize that there are times the best way to help someone is not to help them at all.

                It’s every single time with her. I really have no choice but to go no contact.

                Oy vey!

                Narcissists. They’re everywhere! Look twice, save a life!

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                • You are so sweet.. thank you Anne. ❤ It strikes me funny though.. being real is what people like about my writing & what those close to me like. Yet my own family hates that & would prefer me to be utterly fake. Strange how things work sometimes, isn't it?

                  Oh my gosh yes! Those big yellow "narcissists everywhere" signs do seem necessary, sad to say!

                  Totally agreed about narcissists. Scripture is warped so easily by so many people. It must be narcissists doing this because who else could be so arrogant as to think they know more than God?

                  Leisa sounds like quite the piece of work! So many games! The dish, the horseback riding, her own time schedule with no respect to yours.. WOW! All kinds of games & manipulation. As if that isn't bad enough, what she said about Jesus.. That is utterly horrible! I'm so glad you said what you did to her.. hopefully that was the beginning of change in her heart!

                  That is true, sometimes the best way to help someone is not to help them. There are some folks I know that I have no relationship with anymore but I still pray for them from a distance. If I say anything, especially about my faith, I'm wrong according to them. It's best not to discuss that topic with them, but it doesn't mean I can't pray for them from a nice big distance!

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                  • annealcroft

                    Cynthia, you write, “WOW! All kinds of games & manipulation.”

                    Each time there is any interaction with a narcissist, don’t we find ourselves spending a lot of time unpacking what just happened?

                    Lots of questions to answer, such as:

                    -What is this person doing that triggers me?

                    -How do I identify what the triggers are?

                    -Is my frustration and anger with this person causing me to condemn them, or am I taking a wholesome Christian approach to leveling this relationship for the Glory of God?

                    Most important is to be aware of falling into the trap of condemning the narcissist, which is very easy to do. That can be like the dog chasing its tail back to the conversation about thinking the best of people, yet one of the things that becomes more apparent to me with each interaction that God presents with another narcissist, is that there is a blessing that He is giving that should enable us to learn from them.

                    As I unpacked the recent episode with Leisa, I realized a few things about my own character defects that made me realize I was not being as true to Jesus Christ as I like to think I am; ” And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? – Matthew 7:5 DR

                    Without realizing our own character defects, it is impossible to mature and grow. The narcissist absolutely refuses to humble themselves long enough to accept any form of criticism, and instead of humbly admitting a flaw, a sin, a lie, and so on, they resort to pugnacious behavior to find any way of covering up their own defects and to “win” at any cost, but never on their own merit. In His Beatitudes, Jesus teaches us how best to relate to such people.

                    What is it about our interactions with a narcissist that triggers us, especially those of us with C-PTSD?

                    There are many things I discovered in this Pandora’s Box with my recent episode with Leisa that revealed to me some of my own immaturity and areas where I need to take responsibility for every aspect of healing, especially in letting go of self-interest in order to consecrate my life to Christ, yet I also realized, as you so perfectly nail it, Cynthia, that I found myself ensnared in a narcissistic game of “Queen Bees, Wanna Bees” that I have NO interest in playing.

                    Whether it’s King of the Heap or Queen Bee, the narcissist is always, always, going to try to engage in their conniving, ridiculous games the people who actually care about them the most. Why? Are they that bored? Insecure? Stupid? What is it that they want? Are they really vampires?

                    All of this goes back to envy and jealousy which is really foreign to me. I can honestly say that never in my life have I remotely entertained the thought that anyone could be envious or jealous of me, largely because of my own insecurities and brokenness. From time to time, Cynthia, you have written about the envy and jealousy that motivates the behavior of the narcissist, though I never before related.

                    Two of the most egregious sins are envy and hypocrisy, and they seem to go hand-in-hand.

                    Here is the link to an article I found online about identifying unsafe people from Dr. Cloud: https://neurofeedbackville.com/articles/

                    Right off the bat — Number One: “Unsafe people think they have it all together instead of admitting weakness.”

                    However, NO on Number 2 which states: “Unsafe people are religious instead of spiritual. (Legalism).” No. This dangerously leans toward secularism and the broad gate which leads to perdition instead of life eternal and Heaven. The Gospel teaches otherwise, especially in the writings of Saint Paul.*

                    It is impossible to be authentically spiritual without religion because the Bible, the Word of God, is our only road map that identifies sin and guides us as to what we need to do in order to get through the narrow gate to Heaven and life eternal. Nowhere does Jesus say that His teachings are negotiable. Jesus Christ is the only One Who has ever risen from the dead. He is the only One.

                    *I know of another narcissist who boasts that she is “spiritual” — not religious which translates that for her ilk the endorsement of sin is charitable.

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                    • We truly do! There is so much to “unpack” (I like that term!) with narcissists, it’s no wonder it takes us a while to do that. You make such a good point.. we do need to see our flaws & sometimes dealing with narcissists can help us do that. UGH! If it was only through some other person, a non-narcissist, it’d be so much easier!!! lol But, in dealing with them, we can learn valuable life lessons such as where we need to improve. I realize I learned a lot from the narcissists in my life, such as to trust my own instincts over what other people say, to look past a person’s actions & recognize their motives (good or bad) & even how to recognize narcissists quickly.

                      I know.. I never understood why my own mother envied me but she obviously did. Still, I don’t really get it but I see some of it. She thought my life was so perfect (when it was simply different from hers.. she thought different = perfect apparently). The way narcissists think is so very different than how functional people think that I think it makes that impossible to grasp their thought processe entirely.

                      Such a wonderful article!! “Safe People” was an incredibly helpful book!

                      So true!! Spiritual can mean so many things other than Godly or of the Christian faith. Satan is spiritual! That particular word should be a red flag, I believe.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    • annealcroft

                      “If it was only through some other person, a non-narcissist, it’d be so much easier!!! lol But, in dealing with them, we can learn valuable life lessons such as where we need to improve. I realize I learned a lot from the narcissists in my life, such as to trust my own instincts over what other people say, to look past a person’s actions & recognize their motives (good or bad) & even how to recognize narcissists quickly.”

                      O, Lord! Cynthia, honestly, there is no doubt your are God-sent.

                      Off the bat, it’s important for us to keep our sense of humor in all of this, even if we become cynical. Jesus was not always nice, but he was always good. Sharing here an excellent essay on this subject: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/not-safe-but-good

                      Trying to make a long story short, I’m going to use my parable of Leisa here to illustrate my point.

                      She has sent me several emails over the years I have known her about the ups-and-downs of her life. I have tried my best to respond to her emails always rooted in Christ. I have honestly tried my best, after her hideous denouncement of they bullsh_t about Christ Risen, to pull her out of the fire.

                      Characteristically of her narcissistic personality which I tolerated way too long, she routinely ignores letters that may invite her to think outside the box of her immediate head.

                      Recently, when a subject came up that actually involved safety, permit to carry, and riding horses! Yes, seriously, she ignored my emails until alas I called her on it and asked her if my emails were getting through to her.

                      Just now I checked my phone messages from the past 2 days as I check them three times each week.

                      Earlier I had sent her an email asking her if my emails were getting through to her. This is how evil narcissism works. In her phone message she said she “didn’t know” if her email messages were getting through to me.

                      All I can do is pray for her. Perhaps I shouldn’t have, but I sent her an email message that asked her, point blank, what she thinks I should do to help her.

                      Obviously, the narcissist persists in sapping us for a reason. They are vampires. There is no other way to look at it. There are many excellent youtubes online about exorcisms. We need to know what we are dealing with here because this is a diabolical force far beyond our mere mortal capabilities.

                      Leisa has proven herself, as do all narcissists, untrustworthy. Yet when they realize we are “on” to them, the spit starts to hit the fan.

                      Cynthia, thank you so much for being here and your remarkable contribution to an aspect of Christianity that should draw the multitudes. Your work is incredibly important and most of all, though I speak for myself here no doubt I also speak for others, I am very grateful for having such a friend here in cyberspace to spare myself the evils of those close by and to work out the salvation which Jesus Christ teaches us to do.

                      Nothing can be more important than to explore this healing process through His lens.

                      Blessings, Dear Cynthia.

                      AA

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                    •   You really are too kind to me.    Thank you!    Dealing with Leisa… wow.  I honestly don’t know how you did it!  I know I couldn’t have been that tolerant.  It’s truly a shame she didn’t listen to you & turn to God.   It’s so true though.. narcissists can’t handle it when we catch on.  That’s when things get ugly, especially if we remove them from our lives.   Thank you so much.. I’m truly humbled by your kind words!     I completely agree with you.. we must work out our healing through His lens.  

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  2. You provide such clarify on this subject.

    Liked by 1 person

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